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	<title>Comments for The World Upside Down</title>
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	<pubDate>Sun, 05 Sep 2010 00:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>Comment on Devil, I must sleep by jwowen</title>
		<link>http://www.jwowen.com/?p=967&#038;cpage=1#comment-563</link>
		<dc:creator>jwowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jun 2010 20:36:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Table Talk I think. Roland Bainton quotes it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Table Talk I think. Roland Bainton quotes it.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Devil, I must sleep by jasonfarleys</title>
		<link>http://www.jwowen.com/?p=967&#038;cpage=1#comment-562</link>
		<dc:creator>jasonfarleys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jun 2010 20:22:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Great quote. I love Luther's style. Where's it from?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great quote. I love Luther&#8217;s style. Where&#8217;s it from?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Calvinian, not Jeffersonian, Democray by jwowen</title>
		<link>http://www.jwowen.com/?p=772&#038;cpage=1#comment-555</link>
		<dc:creator>jwowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Apr 2010 05:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I agree, lots of others besides Presbyterians. The writers of the Declaration, whatever their preferred ecclesiastical polity, were predominately Calvinists and overthrew the English not because they were hoping to setup a more perfect system (although they did hope to do that) but because of the unlawful and tyrannical rule of the English. I think a Calvinistic understanding of sin provides the desire for checks and balances, and the plurality of accountable representatives, as Israel and the Church have elders, is common with presbyterian government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, lots of others besides Presbyterians. The writers of the Declaration, whatever their preferred ecclesiastical polity, were predominately Calvinists and overthrew the English not because they were hoping to setup a more perfect system (although they did hope to do that) but because of the unlawful and tyrannical rule of the English. I think a Calvinistic understanding of sin provides the desire for checks and balances, and the plurality of accountable representatives, as Israel and the Church have elders, is common with presbyterian government.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Generational Education by jwowen</title>
		<link>http://www.jwowen.com/?p=866&#038;cpage=1#comment-554</link>
		<dc:creator>jwowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Apr 2010 04:49:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hey Kaitiaki,

I would say it will come at the cost of other &lt;i&gt;apparent&lt;/i&gt; blessings; the seed that sprouted up quickly looked like good seed until it withered. Other seeds that Jesus speaks of pop up and stay up, the ones nourished by deep roots. As you say, these are the ones that come from God's grace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Kaitiaki,</p>
<p>I would say it will come at the cost of other <i>apparent</i> blessings; the seed that sprouted up quickly looked like good seed until it withered. Other seeds that Jesus speaks of pop up and stay up, the ones nourished by deep roots. As you say, these are the ones that come from God&#8217;s grace.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Generational Education by Kaitiaki</title>
		<link>http://www.jwowen.com/?p=866&#038;cpage=1#comment-553</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaitiaki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:21:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>While what you say may well be true (that it &lt;b&gt;will&lt;/b&gt; take generations to correct the error and that it &lt;b&gt;will&lt;/b&gt; come at the cost of other blessing (like Church growth) I think I have a problem with the words I have emphasized. You speak as if there is no possible way the matter can be avoided. Humanly speaking you are right. 

But we deal with the living God who is is perfectly capable of restoring the lost generations should he so desire. I agree it is unlikely, God &lt;b&gt;does&lt;/b&gt; often make us face the consequences of our stupid decisions (like listening to Horace Mann in the first place). However, if we take the lesson to heart and ask for forgiveness, if we seek his face and do all we can to correct our error he is gracious and may grant our prayer.

Other than that caveat I think you wrote this well and it is a thought provoking article. Now if we can only think through the rest of the issues as well, perhaps we can work out what we should be praying for that will bring God the greater glory. Then set about doing what he shows us is necessary to achieve his ends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While what you say may well be true (that it <b>will</b> take generations to correct the error and that it <b>will</b> come at the cost of other blessing (like Church growth) I think I have a problem with the words I have emphasized. You speak as if there is no possible way the matter can be avoided. Humanly speaking you are right. </p>
<p>But we deal with the living God who is is perfectly capable of restoring the lost generations should he so desire. I agree it is unlikely, God <b>does</b> often make us face the consequences of our stupid decisions (like listening to Horace Mann in the first place). However, if we take the lesson to heart and ask for forgiveness, if we seek his face and do all we can to correct our error he is gracious and may grant our prayer.</p>
<p>Other than that caveat I think you wrote this well and it is a thought provoking article. Now if we can only think through the rest of the issues as well, perhaps we can work out what we should be praying for that will bring God the greater glory. Then set about doing what he shows us is necessary to achieve his ends.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Calvinian, not Jeffersonian, Democray by Kaitiaki</title>
		<link>http://www.jwowen.com/?p=772&#038;cpage=1#comment-552</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaitiaki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Apr 2010 05:07:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The &lt;a href="http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Declaration of Independence&lt;/a&gt; states: "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government." This is what I was referring to above ... respect for those that have the rule over us should constrain us to follow the dictates of prudence rather than change governmental systems as we might change the car we drive.

I do not think that the framers of the Declaration were invariably Presbyterian - at least one of the northern states was Congregational, PA was, under the influence of Penn, tolerant of many of the non-Presbyterian groups and there at least some Episcopalians in the mix as well. What made them choose a system of check and balances was not Presbyterian polity, therefore, but an awareness of the influences of sin and a determination to limit its effects in Government. (at least that's how I read the Southern Presbyterian writers I am acquainted with - I have not read much in Hodge or Warfield on this matter, I must admit).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The <a href="http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/" rel="nofollow">Declaration of Independence</a> states: &#8220;Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.&#8221; This is what I was referring to above &#8230; respect for those that have the rule over us should constrain us to follow the dictates of prudence rather than change governmental systems as we might change the car we drive.</p>
<p>I do not think that the framers of the Declaration were invariably Presbyterian - at least one of the northern states was Congregational, PA was, under the influence of Penn, tolerant of many of the non-Presbyterian groups and there at least some Episcopalians in the mix as well. What made them choose a system of check and balances was not Presbyterian polity, therefore, but an awareness of the influences of sin and a determination to limit its effects in Government. (at least that&#8217;s how I read the Southern Presbyterian writers I am acquainted with - I have not read much in Hodge or Warfield on this matter, I must admit).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Hospitality versus Entertaining by jwowen</title>
		<link>http://www.jwowen.com/?p=828&#038;cpage=1#comment-540</link>
		<dc:creator>jwowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:31:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hey Nater.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Nater.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Hospitality versus Entertaining by nateswalker</title>
		<link>http://www.jwowen.com/?p=828&#038;cpage=1#comment-539</link>
		<dc:creator>nateswalker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Mar 2010 03:39:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jer, really good.  Didn't know I checked this did you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jer, really good.  Didn&#8217;t know I checked this did you.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Calvinian, not Jeffersonian, Democray by jwowen</title>
		<link>http://www.jwowen.com/?p=772&#038;cpage=1#comment-538</link>
		<dc:creator>jwowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Kaitiaki,

I agree if you mean in the French Revolutionary sense of overthrowing those who rule over us. But I think it was Walpole who said of the American Revolution that cousin America has run off with the a Presbyterian parson, referring to Witherspoon. Another name for that revolution was the Presbyterian revolt, a Calvinist stand against tyranny if there ever was one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kaitiaki,</p>
<p>I agree if you mean in the French Revolutionary sense of overthrowing those who rule over us. But I think it was Walpole who said of the American Revolution that cousin America has run off with the a Presbyterian parson, referring to Witherspoon. Another name for that revolution was the Presbyterian revolt, a Calvinist stand against tyranny if there ever was one.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Calvinian, not Jeffersonian, Democray by jwowen</title>
		<link>http://www.jwowen.com/?p=772&#038;cpage=1#comment-537</link>
		<dc:creator>jwowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:36:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hey Rachel,

I think Calvinism breeds representational government because of its biblicism (e.g. Jethro's advice in Ex. 18). Of course, I wouldn't argue monarchy is necessarily inferior, it's all about the accountability, checks and balances, and fidelity required. Modern US Presidents enjoy a near fiat power greater most kings in history, and British monarchy is a museum piece. So we have to talk about the principles of the governmental structure and not certain corrupt examples of those forms. I was just reading about Abraham Kuyper this morning and his disdain for the state church and spineless clergymen. 

Wouldn't you agree that Calvinism lends itself to limit the power of men, make them chosen based on merit and held accountable? American (formerly limited!) was founded by people with these Presbyterian convictions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Rachel,</p>
<p>I think Calvinism breeds representational government because of its biblicism (e.g. Jethro&#8217;s advice in Ex. 18). Of course, I wouldn&#8217;t argue monarchy is necessarily inferior, it&#8217;s all about the accountability, checks and balances, and fidelity required. Modern US Presidents enjoy a near fiat power greater most kings in history, and British monarchy is a museum piece. So we have to talk about the principles of the governmental structure and not certain corrupt examples of those forms. I was just reading about Abraham Kuyper this morning and his disdain for the state church and spineless clergymen. </p>
<p>Wouldn&#8217;t you agree that Calvinism lends itself to limit the power of men, make them chosen based on merit and held accountable? American (formerly limited!) was founded by people with these Presbyterian convictions.</p>
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